Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

Discussion in 'Allstar Cheerleading' started by King, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. yojaehs

    yojaehs Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Does simply attending Worlds have the same appeal it once did? No. Does being top 10 mean something? Yes.
    Gyms spin "national champion" 8000 different ways already. Do we need to spin "top 10" now too?


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  2. yojaehs

    yojaehs Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Also, for the record many EPs have small gym divs and I'm yet to hear a gym say "We are NCA small gym national champions". I'm not knockin it at all events OTHER than Worlds. I'm just stating that at WORLDS this should not happen


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  3. TheUltimateFan

    TheUltimateFan I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    Exactly. And not every parent is willing to move their family across the country or ship their child to live with someone else for those last precious years you have them close. Being a small gym may mean you don't have a full quota of top notch Level 5 athletes. But maybe you have 10 who want to compete against others like themselves. And none of them wants to leave their home or their family for the sake of a short time in the Worlds spotlight which - if we are all honest - very rarely means a thing when it comes time to get on with your real life - that next 60 years or so that you have to support yourself, raise a family, all those relatively boring and mundane things.

    Unless, of course, you are one of those that decide you want to open the next 'Craptastic' small gym of your own...
     
  4. cupieqt

    cupieqt Person everyone wants to meet this season National Champion

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    And you don't want to live in that world unless your cool with the FBI. I'll pm you.


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  5. p.o.k.

    p.o.k. When all else fails.... I shimmy

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    The split is not based on anything supposedly like gym size. However there was the situation where one team say was third in one division but would have been twelfth in the other. So clearly this situation is ripe for discrepancy.
     
  6. Ashley

    Ashley Administrator Staff Member National Champion

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    If you're going to make that argument, then couldn't you really say "well you're not THE World Champion, you're the Small Coed World Champion." Couldn't you argue that having 6 senior divisions already diminishes the value of a Worlds title?

    I guess I just don't really see the difference or the big deal.

    ETA: I cheer at a gym where an NCA DIII Collegiate National Champion banner hangs. You bet your butts that those girls don't view their win as anything less prestigious because it isn't DI. They don't qualify their win by saying they're national champions - but only in D3.
     
  7. CheerBank

    CheerBank Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I think once this is implemented, if it is done the right way, after a few years having the divisions will not matter as much as they seem to do right now, especially to the gyms who may feel they are being told they are allowed to play with the big kids anymore. We are so used to thinking about Worlds as we know it be the be-all, end-all that any change is scary especially for those who will be D2. If D2 proves to be just as competitive and respected in it's own way as D1 then there should not be any issue.
     
  8. Boo21

    Boo21 I make my own voiceovers

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    this is not going to happen. If the whole reason behind doing it is to give everyone a chance per se because the world is not a fair place and we have to have as many winners as possible because handling adversity is just not ok anymore i.e. I have seen some of these coaches who would be in division 2 stating things like they have only 10 good athletes of the 20. In that case it would never be AS good or AS wanted as the normal worlds win it's a lesser win any way you cut it. World's needs to be left as it is and if they do a division split I sincerely hope the really good programs stop going. It will not mean as much how could it???
     
  9. Ashley

    Ashley Administrator Staff Member National Champion

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    And you think that those teams have any more of a chance of winning in D2 than they did before? If you're not a real level 5 team, you're not going to win Worlds, regardless of how many divisions they add.

    Those teams can get a bid now, and they'll get a bid if there are two divisions. It doesn't mean they'll make it out of prelims in either case.
     
  10. The Sixth

    The Sixth When all else fails.... I shimmy

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    This was exactly my point early on. Who is this really benefitting the USASF/Varsity, or the industry? Even if there are several small gym owners who elect not to participate at Worlds, there is still enough support (IMO) that it won't just dry up from those losses. IF however it does cease to exist, it will be because they put out a poor product for ANY size gym.
     
  11. kristenthegreat

    kristenthegreat Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Is there any reliable resource that has all the numbers for every worlds- particularly for small senior and small coed (which seems to be where this is in consideration)? Teams attended, score, who made finals, etc? I know we have some, but I'm not sure how comprehensive it is.
     
  12. RockstarCheer

    RockstarCheer When all else fails.... I shimmy

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    Not entirely true. We only have had one location for the last 2 seasons


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  13. AndrewSky

    AndrewSky Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    It's ironic because in small coed especially small gyms beat big name programs this year.
     
  14. newcheerdad

    newcheerdad Best Speechmaker '12

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    This is the point.

    I've listened to this discussion for a while now, and haven't really weighed in because I wasn't sure how to put my thoughts together. But basically, the issue at hand here isn't small gym vs. big gym - it's elite gym vs. everyone else.

    The argument I made right from the get-go is that there are probably 50-75 gyms that can legitimately compete for major championships (i.e., Worlds, NCA, CheerSport, etc.). And then there's everyone else. As long as this stratification exists, you're going to constantly have issues where the elite gyms get stronger and the rest of the pack suffers because they simply cannot compete at that level.

    And this isn't necessarily a business issue. There's a reason some colleges have FCS football teams instead of FBS, why their athletics will be Division 2 instead of Division 1. And it's not always that the Division 2 school is bad, or poorly run - it's that they simply don't have the resources and talent base to compete at the higher level.

    Like it or not, that's the reality of cheer right now.

    So guess what? Rather than just telling these programs to just "try harder" or "do a better job with their business", maybe it's time we realize that we need to have like competing against like.

    Does that mean I like the Division 1/2 structure being proposed? Not really. In a perfect world, I'd still have Worlds but limit participation to "qualified gyms". Because Ashley hit on it - at some point, the talent pool thins out dramatically. A bad level 5 team isn't going to be do appreciably better in Division 2 the way this is structured. Perhaps that team shouldn't be competing level 5 at all, and somebody needs to save that gym from themselves.

    Just like you can't have your local community college schedule a football game against the University of Texas, maybe we need to admit that Craptastic All-Stars can't compete against Senior Elite.* And that the real answer is to have a viable, year-end competition for everyone else rather than trying to jam everyone - regardless of ability level - into Worlds.

    *Eh, who am I kidding? CAS forever.
     
  15. kristenthegreat

    kristenthegreat Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I looked over medals for history of worlds, and it's Small/Medium Coed (in their various incarnations) where there is the MOST variance in team placements. The Silver/Bronze champion has been (more often than not) someone who I wouldn't consider a large gym: Macs, Rockstar, ICE (they now have multiple locations but I wouldn't consider them mega), CAS, South Elite, heck even Brandon at some point wasn't the biggest gym but they're still a powerhouse. The least amount of movement has been in Small Senior, where top 3 is typically been some version of Orange, SSX, and Cali. With an occasional appearance from another team (Basics, Woodlands, etc). It's hard to really consider the other divisions as they are mostly large-gym heavy anyway (although South Jersey Storm made an appearance here and there).

    Whatever happened to I hope you lose?