All-Star What's A Normal Variance In Score?

[CIACheerMom]

I feel as a small gym we start lower than the bigger gyms. Cheer will always b subjective.

Totally agree. We are now considering only going to events where they split up D1 and D2 as we have seen five point differences in raw scores on her team from one competition to the next.

 

[Michael White]

It is VERY subjective but I've been on both sides-- lesser known gym and better known gym. I will say this- the bigger well known gym really drilled technique technique technique into the athletes-- WAY more than the lesser known gym. The lesser known gym would "hit" but look sloppy while doing so. As long as the flyers stayed up, that's almost all that mattered in their eyes. I really noticed it once I left. When I was there though, I was blind to it. Also, the better known gym shared Day 1 score sheets with the athletes so they knew exactly what they needed to work on heading into Day 2- unheard of for our lesser known gym to do that. So, yes, it is a very subjective sport and I thought name meant everything, as well. However, in my experience, it doesn't mean as much as I thought it once did. And no, what I say above is not the rule- just my personal experience.

I coached at a gym of 70 athletes, we drilled technique, and shared scores after day 1. I think that's things that every gym does?

 

[Cheer_Up_Everyone]

I coached at a gym of 70 athletes, we drilled technique, and shared scores after day 1. I think that's things that every gym does?

I'm not here to debate anything- I'm just saying my experience from my 2 kids. And sharing scores and score sheets are 2 different things.

 

[cheer25mom]

I'm not here to debate anything- I'm just saying my experience from my 2 kids. And sharing scores and score sheets are 2 different things.

I get what you are saying, I do. And it's true of SOME small gyms, but what bothers me is the assumption, not necessarily by you but in the industry as a whole, that all small gyms operate this way. They don't, but get scored based on the biased idea that they do. We see it a lot. Everyone assumes No Name Athletics cannot possibly be as technically sound as Big Name Mega Cheer, and that shows in the scores even when it wasn't reflected on the mat. That shouldn't happen, but it does.

Your original post came across as assuming that your experience was what typically is the case. It also said that name doesn't really matter. In my experience and apparently that of others here, it absolutely does, and can make a HUGE difference in scores. Challenging that idea is going to have to be part of removing the scoring bias that exists, and it DOES exist. I have watched it evolve over the last 5 years to be more and more of an issue.

When CP first started all stars, comparative scoring wasn't what it is now. We KNEW what their difficulty score should be, within perhaps a tenth, based on the skills they were putting on the floor, and by and large it was consistent. The last 2 years have been all over the board. The same skills could score 4.9 on difficulty one day and 4.5 on another. execution scores have been all over the board, varying by as much as 0.8 between comps for very similar quality of skill. Across the categories, it adds up to multiple points of difference for the same routine and the same quality of execution. That's not ok, and the common factor seems to be that no name gyms score lower when there is a big name gym around.

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

same varsity scoresheet
Same routine
Hit- no deductions or bobbles

What do you think is an acceptable range in scores from one competition to another. I feel like 2-3 is the max; but I'm seeing and hearing about 4-5 on a regular basis.

So judging and scoring is subjective, I think we have all heard that before, and the term HIT is extremely misleading, a hit routine typically only refers to a routine that doesn't have any deductions or missed skills. The truth though is if you do everything real well, with excellent execution, synchonization and cleanliness and have properly maxed out your score sheet then you can overcome a stunt fall, bobble or tumbling issue and beat a HIT routine that score lower in the execution or difficulty category. I suggest becoming familiar with the Varsity Scoring Rubric. http://admin.varsity.com/uploads/editor/files/PDFS/AllStar/16-17-VAS-Scoring-Rubric.pdf and the Varsity Score Sheet: http://register.varsity.com/VAS/16-VAS-score-sheet.PDF . As for the variance, I think it is way too simple to just say judging is subjective, there are many factors that can go into how a routine is scored that is separate of the judge themselves, they can be seated at a different height or angle that allows or doesn't allow for the same view of a routine at every venue, and leads to sometime something being seen in the back of a routine that might get missed in another competition. With that being said, it is likely that your execution is getting graded in the most or majority range at one competition and the next one you might be getting put in the lower majority range or the less the majority range. On top of that they have a range that they can grade your difficulty, as an example a maxed out score sheet routine could score between 4.5-50 for each stunts, pyramid, standing and running tumbling, at one competition you can receive 4.9 for difficulty in all 4 categories and in the next competition it could be graded a 4.6 in each category. That alone could be a difference of 1.2 points, before you get in to what the difference in execution scores for each category could be.

Here's an example of how a 4-5 point variance might work:

Competiton 1(diff/exec) Stunts 4.9/4.5 Stunt Creat 4.6/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.9/4.5 Pyramid creat 4.6 Toss 5.0/4.5 St Tumbling 4.8/4.6 RuTumbling 4.7/4.5 Jumps 5.0/4.6 Dance 4.7 Perf 9,6 Rou Comp 9.6 total= 94.6

Comp 2(diff/exec) Stunts 4.6/4.3 Stunt Creat 4.3/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.6/4.3 Pyramid creat 4.3 Toss 5.0/4.3 St Tumbling 4.5/4.3 RuTumbling 4.5/4.3 Jumps 5.0/4.2 Dance 4.5 Perf 9,3 Rou Comp 9.3 total= 90.6

Difference is 4 points.

Maybe at competition one legs were straighter and in secquence, and
stunts and body positions are performed more cleanly than at competition 2. tTey are both the same HIT routine.

 

[cheermomforever]

I get what you are saying, I do. And it's true of SOME small gyms, but what bothers me is the assumption, not necessarily by you but in the industry as a whole, that all small gyms operate this way. They don't, but get scored based on the biased idea that they do. We see it a lot. Everyone assumes No Name Athletics cannot possibly be as technically sound as Big Name Mega Cheer, and that shows in the scores even when it wasn't reflected on the mat. That shouldn't happen, but it does.

Your original post came across as assuming that your experience was what typically is the case. It also said that name doesn't really matter. In my experience and apparently that of others here, it absolutely does, and can make a HUGE difference in scores. Challenging that idea is going to have to be part of removing the scoring bias that exists, and it DOES exist. I have watched it evolve over the last 5 years to be more and more of an issue.

When CP first started all stars, comparative scoring wasn't what it is now. We KNEW what their difficulty score should be, within perhaps a tenth, based on the skills they were putting on the floor, and by and large it was consistent. The last 2 years have been all over the board. The same skills could score 4.9 on difficulty one day and 4.5 on another. execution scores have been all over the board, varying by as much as 0.8 between comps for very similar quality of skill. Across the categories, it adds up to multiple points of difference for the same routine and the same quality of execution. That's not ok, and the common factor seems to be that no name gyms score lower when there is a big name gym around.

u said exactly what I wanted to say!

 

[luv2cheer92]

So judging and scoring is subjective, I think we have all heard that before, and the term HIT is extremely misleading, a hit routine typically only refers to a routine that doesn't have any deductions or missed skills. The truth though is if you do everything real well, with excellent execution, synchonization and cleanliness and have properly maxed out your score sheet then you can overcome a stunt fall, bobble or tumbling issue and beat a HIT routine that score lower in the execution or difficulty category. I suggest becoming familiar with the Varsity Scoring Rubric. http://admin.varsity.com/uploads/editor/files/PDFS/AllStar/16-17-VAS-Scoring-Rubric.pdf and the Varsity Score Sheet: http://register.varsity.com/VAS/16-VAS-score-sheet.PDF . As for the variance, I think it is way too simple to just say judging is subjective, there are many factors that can go into how a routine is scored that is separate of the judge themselves, they can be seated at a different height or angle that allows or doesn't allow for the same view of a routine at every venue, and leads to sometime something being seen in the back of a routine that might get missed in another competition. With that being said, it is likely that your execution is getting graded in the most or majority range at one competition and the next one you might be getting put in the lower majority range or the less the majority range. On top of that they have a range that they can grade your difficulty, as an example a maxed out score sheet routine could score between 4.5-50 for each stunts, pyramid, standing and running tumbling, at one competition you can receive 4.9 for difficulty in all 4 categories and in the next competition it could be graded a 4.6 in each category. That alone could be a difference of 1.2 points, before you get in to what the difference in execution scores for each category could be.

Here's an example of how a 4-5 point variance might work:

Competiton 1(diff/exec) Stunts 4.9/4.5 Stunt Creat 4.6/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.9/4.5 Pyramid creat 4.6 Toss 5.0/4.5 St Tumbling 4.8/4.6 RuTumbling 4.7/4.5 Jumps 5.0/4.6 Dance 4.7 Perf 9,6 Rou Comp 9.6 total= 94.6

Comp 2(diff/exec) Stunts 4.6/4.3 Stunt Creat 4.3/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.6/4.3 Pyramid creat 4.3 Toss 5.0/4.3 St Tumbling 4.5/4.3 RuTumbling 4.5/4.3 Jumps 5.0/4.2 Dance 4.5 Perf 9,3 Rou Comp 9.3 total= 90.6

Difference is 4 points.

Maybe at competition one legs were straighter and in secquence, and
stunts and body positions are performed more cleanly than at competition 2. tTey are both the same HIT routine.

This. Add in the component of comparative scoring and it can easily change that much comp to comp. That is also why you can't compare scores between divisions and why many, probably most, comps do video reviews for bids. Ideal, absolutely not, but it's the nature of the current scoring system.

 

[getsum]

hell, with the amount of scoring variations in this sport... im guessing 20+ lol.

i think youlll find a normal scoring variance when you can get a normal, standardized scoring system.

 

[cheer25mom]

So judging and scoring is subjective, I think we have all heard that before, and the term HIT is extremely misleading, a hit routine typically only refers to a routine that doesn't have any deductions or missed skills. The truth though is if you do everything real well, with excellent execution, synchonization and cleanliness and have properly maxed out your score sheet then you can overcome a stunt fall, bobble or tumbling issue and beat a HIT routine that score lower in the execution or difficulty category. I suggest becoming familiar with the Varsity Scoring Rubric. http://admin.varsity.com/uploads/editor/files/PDFS/AllStar/16-17-VAS-Scoring-Rubric.pdf and the Varsity Score Sheet: http://register.varsity.com/VAS/16-VAS-score-sheet.PDF . As for the variance, I think it is way too simple to just say judging is subjective, there are many factors that can go into how a routine is scored that is separate of the judge themselves, they can be seated at a different height or angle that allows or doesn't allow for the same view of a routine at every venue, and leads to sometime something being seen in the back of a routine that might get missed in another competition. With that being said, it is likely that your execution is getting graded in the most or majority range at one competition and the next one you might be getting put in the lower majority range or the less the majority range. On top of that they have a range that they can grade your difficulty, as an example a maxed out score sheet routine could score between 4.5-50 for each stunts, pyramid, standing and running tumbling, at one competition you can receive 4.9 for difficulty in all 4 categories and in the next competition it could be graded a 4.6 in each category. That alone could be a difference of 1.2 points, before you get in to what the difference in execution scores for each category could be.

Here's an example of how a 4-5 point variance might work:

Competiton 1(diff/exec) Stunts 4.9/4.5 Stunt Creat 4.6/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.9/4.5 Pyramid creat 4.6 Toss 5.0/4.5 St Tumbling 4.8/4.6 RuTumbling 4.7/4.5 Jumps 5.0/4.6 Dance 4.7 Perf 9,6 Rou Comp 9.6 total= 94.6

Comp 2(diff/exec) Stunts 4.6/4.3 Stunt Creat 4.3/0 COED 5.0/0 Pyramid 4.6/4.3 Pyramid creat 4.3 Toss 5.0/4.3 St Tumbling 4.5/4.3 RuTumbling 4.5/4.3 Jumps 5.0/4.2 Dance 4.5 Perf 9,3 Rou Comp 9.3 total= 90.6

Difference is 4 points.

Maybe at competition one legs were straighter and in secquence, and
stunts and body positions are performed more cleanly than at competition 2. tTey are both the same HIT routine.

I understand the scoresheet, I just don't agree with the way it is being applied in some cases.

This SHOULDN'T be happening though. Difficulty should be the same if the same skills are executed. I can see how quality of execution scores can and should change, but no way should a difficulty for the same set of skills be one point lower at comp B than it was at comp A. As for execution, I think there needs to be abetter standard as to what constitutes a deduction and how much to deduct. I have seen routines that are VERY close to identical in execution score very differently in front of different judges.

 

[Lovemyoagirl]

In my experience, yes. And those names effect how event producers are awarding bids too. Recently a team from fairly unknown gym outscored a big gym at a varsity branded competition by tenths of a point. The company used a "video review" to award the summit bid to the big name gym, because of who they were. They still cannot give solid reasoning as to WHY they went to video review when scores were NOT tied.

I am hearing more and more about incidences like this.

 

[Cheer4U2]

We experienced this this past weekend at a varsity event! Two weeks prior we where at another varsity event where we competed against 6 of the 8 teams we competed against this past weekend. We ended up scoring a 95.05. This past weekend at a varsity event using the same score sheet competing against pretty much the same teams we competed against two weeks ago and doing the same routine we scored a 88. I understand that scores will vary from comp to comp especially technique scores as some judges may be more picky about technique than others but to have a 7 point difference is just crazy to me.

 

[CLynn]

We are now considering only going to events where they split up D1 and D2 as we have seen five point differences in raw scores on her team from one competition to the next.

In your opinion, it is just a big gym/small gym issue? I would think within D2 there must be stronger gyms with better reputations than others, no?

 

[Cobalt_Jeron]

See i don't mind having the variance comp to comp. My problem comes when we are competing against other teams all year, and all within tenths of each other, each week(.5 at the most some times). Then we go to last week's comp and all of a sudden we are 2.5 points lower than the other teams we've been essentially tied with all year. That is a problem.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

[Stephie1012]

In your opinion, it is just a big gym/small gym issue? I would think within D2 there must be stronger gyms with better reputations than others, no?

I think in my opinion it has to do with judges seeing the mega gyms name and scoring them better. There are some amazing d2 gyms but having no name allstars against nameless allstars is going to be more fair than having nameless allstars against mega gym.

 

[cheermomforever]

We experienced this this past weekend at a varsity event! Two weeks prior we where at another varsity event where we competed against 6 of the 8 teams we competed against this past weekend. We ended up scoring a 95.05. This past weekend at a varsity event using the same score sheet competing against pretty much the same teams we competed against two weeks ago and doing the same routine we scored a 88. I understand that scores will vary from comp to comp especially technique scores as some judges may be more picky about technique than others but to have a 7 point difference is just crazy to me.

I heard MB scores were super low this past weekend. Our teams got scored under 90 also there compared to mid 90's the previous comp. it's crazy how judges views r sometimes.