All-Star I'm Going To Cheat

[Just-a-Mom]

BTW: Illinois does issue ID's for minors. (Not sure if that is were you are from, just going off of your profile thingy)

I didn't know that. Thanks! (Yes, that's where we live now. Used to be VA, and I know they do them).

 

[kristenthegreat]

Yes, I see your point. I am talking about under/over age, crossovers being used as an intentional cheat.

And that, I think EVERYONE can agree with, is wrong. I think we can all easily say that dropping your TRUE level 3 team (as in can hit all base 3 skills, plus maybe one or two specialty plus skills) down to level 2 or 1 is cheating and wrong. Using an overage/underage athlete is wrong.

Why are some rules in place? Why is it still illegal to drink alcohol before noon on Sundays in NYC? Why is it illegal to tie your alligator to a fire hydrant in Minnesota? There are some rules that are hard-and-fast: blatant cheating, safety rules, progressions rules (which are basically safety rules). We can all agree those rules have a purpose, although even some of those rules get bent. It is illegal to compete with jewelry, yet Cells had chokers as part of their outfits. There are crossover rules in place to prevent sandbagging of athletes, but that also means a kids who wants to compete on multiple teams (or could be used as a replacement) might get put in a bind if there's an injury. I often think about these sorts of things in my spare time, particularly when I cross compare it to laws (as this is an election year). It's the spirit of the law vs. what the law says..

 

[King]

And that, I think EVERYONE can agree with, is wrong. I think we can all easily say that dropping your TRUE level 3 team (as in can hit all base 3 skills, plus maybe one or two specialty plus skills) down to level 2 or 1 is cheating and wrong. Using an overage/underage athlete is wrong.

Why are some rules in place? Why is it still illegal to drink alcohol before noon on Sundays in NYC? Why is it illegal to tie your alligator to a fire hydrant in Minnesota? There are some rules that are hard-and-fast: blatant cheating, safety rules, progressions rules (which are basically safety rules). We can all agree those rules have a purpose, although even some of those rules get bent. It is illegal to compete with jewelry, yet Cells had chokers as part of their outfits. There are crossover rules in place to prevent sandbagging of athletes, but that also means a kids who wants to compete on multiple teams (or could be used as a replacement) might get put in a bind if there's an injury. I often think about these sorts of things in my spare time, particularly when I cross compare it to laws (as this is an election year). It's the spirit of the law vs. what the law says..

So when looking at rules for skills do you go with the spirit of the rule or what the rule says? You are about to tread down a dangerous road.

 

[ASCheerMan]

Justin,

You answering questions on here (in a way a very vulnerable position) does more to fix people's perceptions of Allstar and the USASF more than pretty much all the other efforts I've seen. Thanks. I know everyone appreciates it (even if the answers aren't always what people want).

I appreciate you acknowledging my participation. It's important to me that the community understand that we care just as much about our industry as you do.
It's also important to remind you that I'm speaking unofficially and not necessarily on behalf of NCA/Varsity/USASF or whatever group the question pertains to. If you TRULY demand answers to your questions, you must reach out to those entities directly and officially. No response from those groups on this message board doesn't mean they are avoiding your question, it means that our first priority is handling our official customers that call us and email us.

 

[kristenthegreat]

So when looking at rules for skills do you go with the spirit of the rule or what the rule says? You are about to tread down a dangerous road.

Personally, I would go for what the rule says. That's because while I'm confident I can follow the letter very well and safely, I don't know that I have the creativity and know-how to technically follow the letter while leaning towards the spirit and not run the risk of injury (If any of that made sense, it did in my brain lol). I can be safe, but safety AND innovation might never be my strength. It IS, however, the strength of others. Although I think even THEY can toe the line, and must be very careful with what they do. And how they're stretching the wording, because even trained people with good ideas (and intentions) can make mistakes or go too far.

Take the Scorpion Prone-down that caused so much chaos that one year. Was that following the spirit of the rule or what the rule said? Or the prone arm/leg-grab that TG did this year?

We have many rules for a reason, and I do think the majority of them make sense. That doesn't mean we should ever stop questioning why those rules are there in the first place. A healthy evaluation (which we do on our two-year cycle) is among the best ideas we have.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I know this was from pages ago, and I think everyone agrees that something better than birth certificates is needed, but just to stir the pot a little for your competition this year ... how does a birth certificate prove anything? I've always wondered this - and i'm really only using your son as an example, not because I think you would do this (I know you wouldn't). But if I'm from a competing gym, and your gym shows a birth certificate that says he is 14, how do I know it's HIS birth certificate and not his next door neighbor's? Or another son you have that doesn't cheer? Everyone keeps saying you can forge one. You don't even need to forge it - just use someone else's. They don't have photos or anything. I'm so confused as to why birth certificates are even used. They don't prove anything.

Good point really. Without a photo ID that matches it I guess it really doesn't prove much. And I agree with your passport argument. Our kids passports are actually about to expire, I'll renew my daughters after her trip to France with her tumbling coach, but the both have to be renewed before our summer cruise or they cant come back INTO the country. However, passports are not cheap to get and if you have custody issues like yours they may be impossible to get at all.

 

[cljacks99]

Student ids maybe?? Our school has them. School I'd and birth cert should work, I think.

 

[King]

Personally, I would go for what the rule says. That's because while I'm confident I can follow the letter very well and safely, I don't know that I have the creativity and know-how to technically follow the letter while leaning towards the spirit and not run the risk of injury (If any of that made sense, it did in my brain lol). I can be safe, but safety AND innovation might never be my strength. It IS, however, the strength of others. Although I think even THEY can toe the line, and must be very careful with what they do. And how they're stretching the wording, because even trained people with good ideas (and intentions) can make mistakes or go too far.

Take the Scorpion Prone-down that caused so much chaos that one year. Was that following the spirit of the rule or what the rule said? Or the prone arm/leg-grab that TG did this year?

We have many rules for a reason, and I do think the majority of them make sense. That doesn't mean we should ever stop questioning why those rules are there in the first place. A healthy evaluation (which we do on our two-year cycle) is among the best ideas we have.

When we do not treat the rules as black and white, who is in charge of saying when a team didn't break the rule too much? Or didn't MEAN to break the rule so it is ok? Or in reality was just really good at stretching the words and so they should be ok? How do you determine that person? What if that person is friends with someone bending the rules? Do they have an advantage? What if that someone is making the rules, do they have an advantage?

Remember the scorpion to prone was illegal (I found it) and the rules guy at the event admitted to missing it (who is actually a friend of mine). It was only after the fact that it was called non-prone. And it only mattered because it was a PR nightmare because a bid would have gone to Midwest Cheer Elite (who had just had that terrible car accident. When rules are not black and white, they can lead to sticky situations. Wouldn't it have been nice to have a rule talking about how to handle illegalities after a competition is over? Wouldn't have put so many people in an awkward position.

Put another way. The speed limit is 55. I know someone who is a REALLY good driver. Just very talented behind the wheel. They like to go 64. In Atlanta they really only start pulling people over if you go 10 or more over. So it isn't like they are 'breaking' the rules... just bending them a little. Well, why do we have speed limits? To highly frustrate drivers and increase our commute time? Or to get all drivers to go at a safe speed so that as many people can pass through an area as quickly as possible without causing an accident. If my friend got in an accident going 64, who's fault is it? I guess we could never truly know (given the limited data I am presenting) but as long as my friend was speeding how can we say the accident would have still happened if everyone was going the speed limit and obeying the rules? Rules are set for a reason. That does not mean everyone is not burned by them at some point (I have gotten a speeding ticket before and as earlier noted I have had an illegal member on my team before). But if we bend the rules because our own personal situations (because if everyone just KNEW the personal trials and tribulations we went through they would understand why that illegal athlete I had that one time wasn't fair to me or why I should be allowed to speed) everyone is bending the rules.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Edited for length.

I vaguely remember us having a similar discussion (I remember you using your speed-limit analogy ). I think it was in a conversation F!ERCE started about the grey area of rules. I remember it being particularly interesting, because I feel like it comes down to two ideas on how to keep our athletes safe without sacrificing creativity and innovation. When I think of that, I think of the Toe Touch-Up done by Brandon or the Flying Squirrel Prone Catches done by TG.

I don't think anyone should be above the rules, by the way. I do think some are intended to box us up all cookie cutter and nice, though. And not in a good way.

 

[King]

I vaguely remember us having a similar discussion (I remember you using your speed-limit analogy ). I think it was in a conversation F!ERCE started about the grey area of rules. I remember it being particularly interesting, because I feel like it comes down to two ideas on how to keep our athletes safe without sacrificing creativity and innovation. When I think of that, I think of the Toe Touch-Up done by Brandon or the Flying Squirrel Prone Catches done by TG.

I don't think anyone should be above the rules, by the way. I do think some are intended to box us up all cookie cutter and nice, though. And not in a good way.

Remember that creativity comes from a box. Limits are what free minds to explore their defined space. So I just don't see hard lining rules limiting creativity. Because in reality there is an asymptote of skills as is. Applying and thinking about what you can do within the limits in new ways is where the creativity is.

 

[ACEDAD]

I appreciate you acknowledging my participation. It's important to me that the community understand that we care just as much about our industry as you do.
It's also important to remind you that I'm speaking unofficially and not necessarily on behalf of NCA/Varsity/USASF or whatever group the question pertains to. If you TRULY demand answers to your questions, you must reach out to those entities directly and officially. No response from those groups on this message board doesn't mean they are avoiding your question, it means that our first priority is handling our official customers that call us and email us.

Just to follow up with what kingston said, I really do appreciate you taking the time to answer on here. Same with RulesGuy when he gets the chance.

I hope that you know that my efforts are entirely to help the USASF and affiliated EPs/gyms/coaches understand that there is another perspective. The parents and fans are critical, not only to the growth but, to the very survival of this sport. And they so often get overlooked in the workings and plans.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Remember that creativity comes from a box. Limits are what free minds to explore their defined space. So I just don't see hard lining rules limiting creativity. Because in reality there is an asymptote of skills as is. Applying and thinking about what you can do within the limits in new ways is where the creativity is.

I'm going to assume Quantum Physics does not float your boat.

 

[King]

I'm going to assume Quantum Physics does not float your boat.

Is there really a boat?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Is there really a boat?

Depends on the perception of one's limits I suppose.

 

[King]

Depends on the perception of one's limits I suppose.

Ok, so if we are comparing quantum physics to cheerleading, what are the parallels?