All-Star I'm Going To Cheat

[CheerBank]

Well I am in no way attacking you personally but that is a 100% cop out in my book. If you are a paying customer you have a choice. If you feel that much pressure that you don't feel comfortable to open your mouth then you are definitely in the wrong place. I bet if the parents bill was $5 over they would have NO problem confronting any and everyone. I'm sorry but there are millions of different tactics that can help deter cheaters by EP's but there is one way to STOP it, and that is by PARENTS leaving the gym, that doesn't deter it, that STOPS it.

Oh no attack felt at all. You are 100% correct. I know now that the way my first gym handled many many things was completely wrong and thankfully this is already our third season away from there. I actually talked one of my friends who is still there into insisting that a certain athlete be removed from her cp's youth team the year after we left because she was over age (and they did remove her but not before sending me nasty texts about how they never cheated which made me laugh.) I didn't leave sooner than I did because my kids were happy at that point and had made many friends there over the years. I knew though once I started my final season angry with the coaches and owners that I was done and done.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Not that this could be provided right at the comp, but Facebook posts clearly showing the athletes age? Most kids have their b-days posted (not the year) so a screenshot of that and the "Happy 20th Birthday" or "Happy 11th Birthday" posts? This should at least prompt further investigation into the athlete's true age. Sometimes it even reveals a coach's knowledge of the athlete's true age as well.

My son got his FB when he was 12 ( and since 13 is that legal date ) I'm pretty sure his age on FB is like 20 or 21 at this point. Hes 14.

Yes, I admit.....he's a Facebook age cheater. My daughter is too since she's had one for our a year and she's still not 13.

FB is probably not a reliable source of information for basically....anything.

 

[5-6-7-8]

That's ridiculous to think someone would have a copy of an athletes birth certificate. Only way is if the athlete had cheered previously at another gym and that gym is the one making the claim. I think things like yearbooks should be enough to start a process of further investigation.

Ok it just hit me that you all are saying that the one making the accusation is the one who has to provide the proof?!?!? That is absurd!!! Because I usually walk around with certified copies of birth certificates of my competitors.

One of two scenarios would be much better...

1. Accusing team (coach or parent) can submit a claim by paying a fee that is refunded if claim is true. USASF an then ask for an official birth certificate copy (or passport) for claim.

2. If enough reasonable circumstantial information is submitted, USASF can require proof of age as in #1.

Does it really need to be much more complicated than that???

 

[kristenthegreat]

Ok it just hit me that you all are saying that the one making the accusation is the one who has to provide the proof?!?!? That is absurd!!! Because I usually walk around with certified copies of birth certificates of my competitors.

One of two scenarios would be much better...

1. Accusing team (coach or parent) can submit a claim by paying a fee that is refunded if claim is true. USASF an then ask for an official birth certificate copy (or passport) for claim.

2. If enough reasonable circumstantial information is submitted, USASF can require proof of age as in #1.

Does it really need to be much more complicated than that???

That's kinda how it is in football (ie when you challenge a play, you lose your timeout if you're wrong. You get to keep it if you're right)..if you make the fee upfront for the accuser, you can help deter frivolous claims.

 

[CheerBank]

My son got his FB when he was 12 ( and since 13 is that legal date ) I'm pretty sure his age on FB is like 20 or 21 at this point. Hes 14.

Yes, I admit.....he's a Facebook age cheater. My daughter is too since she's had one for our a year and she's still not 13.

FB is probably not a reliable source of information for basically....anything.

Lol my cps got theirs younger than the allowed ages so we are guilty of this as well. However, even though most kids put in a fake year to allow them to register, they still put in their true birthday. So if there is an athlete who's birthday is listed as January 19th for example was going to Worlds 2012 and you knew was not 12 as of August 31st, 2011, wouldn't countless Happy 12th Birthday posts on Facebook on January 19th, 2012 at least raise a red flag if such a claim was submitted to the USASF - and prompt further investigation of the athlete with requests for a birth certificate? I'm not saying its a be all end all source of info but it's at least a valid reason for looking more into this claim.
It's very frustrating when you know someone is violating the age grids and you have to go to such lengths to prove it such as stalking FB pages.

 

[ASCheerMan]

I think ASCheerMan touched on this. About how there were times that they found people 'not guilty', but that didn't mean they were innocent.

Although I will ask- do school pictures count? I suppose a child could be held back, but what about a photo from a sweet 16 that's date-stamped? Crazy, but who knows?

My questions are:
What counts as legitimate proof? Provided by either coaches or parents? Pictures that are timed/date stamped (can you forge that, I dunno?)..School yearbook photos? Birthday party photos? Notarized birth certificates? Drivers license? Passport? The last 3, sure. Would any of the others work? Potentially OTHER things as well?

In the past, we've consulted with legal counsel regarding eligibility investigations. What we learned is screenshots from FB and emails where guilt is admitted are types of evidence that are only secondary--they aren't compelling enough to convict the accused, but they do serve as justification when deciding to investigate further. At any point in the process, it is appropriate and standard to request2 forms of official identification from the accused (or anyone from that matter): a certified birth certificate, a drivers license, a passport, etc. If the accused produces these two items, regardless of compelling evidence to the contrary, an EP has no choice but to declare the accused NOT GUILTY.

To require 2forms of ID, receive them and then say "but wait, we STILL don't believe you, now I need 3!!" is unfair to the accused. Further investigation beyond that point starts to turn into a witch hunt of sorts and forces the EP to change their focus to be like that of an investigator - a role most EP's are not qualified to serve in.

 

[kristenthegreat]

In the past, we've consulted with legal counsel regarding eligibility investigations. What we learned is screenshots from FB and emails where guilt is admitted are types of evidence that are only secondary--they aren't compelling enough to convict the accused, but they do serve as justification when deciding to investigate further. At any point in the process, it is appropriate and standard to request2 forms of official identification from the accused (or anyone from that matter): a certified birth certificate, a drivers license, a passport, etc. If the accused produces these two items, regardless of compelling evidence to the contrary, an EP has no choice but to declare the accused NOT GUILTY.

To require 2forms of ID, receive them and then say "but wait, we STILL don't believe you, now I need 3!!" is unfair to the accused. Further investigation beyond that point starts to turn into a witch hunt of sorts and forces the EP to change their focus to be like that of an investigator - a role most EP's are not qualified to serve in.

If a child only has a birth certificate (under 16 and no driver's license/passport), what would you count as the 2nd item accepted? I'm not trying to box you in, but I feel like that mystery second piece is where 'we' lose out on sealing the deal.

 

[Ashley]

If a child only has a birth certificate (under 16 and no driver's license/passport), what would you count as the 2nd item accepted? I'm not trying to box you in, but I feel like that mystery second piece is where 'we' lose out on sealing the deal.

Social Security card? I usually need that and my birth certificate or passport when I start a new job.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

ASCheerMan (or Andre ) what would it actually take to make an accusation about age to USASF? If I "knew" someone on another gym's senior team was 20 (like if I know their family or something. Assume for this scenario I've known them forever and I really do know for sure that they are 20 years old.) I certainly do not have their birth certificate. Why or how would I? So does that mean that there would be no way to file a complaint (or accusation or whatever you would call it)? Is the burden of proof on the accuser? Just curious as to what you guys would count as enough to get the ball rolling. I understand the desire to avoid millions of accusations flying around that you'd have to follow up on, but I also understand the point of view of "how would I prove someone else's age?"

ETA - I was typing this while you were replying above. Sorry I think you answered some of this.

 

[Deleted member 15]

ASCheerMan (or Andre ) what would it actually take to make an accusation about age to USASF? If I "knew" someone on another gym's senior team was 20 (like if I know their family or something. Assume for this scenario I've known them forever and I really do know for sure that they are 20 years old.) I certainly do not have their birth certificate. Why or how would I? So does that mean that there would be no way to file a complaint (or accusation or whatever you would call it)? Is the burden of proof on the accuser? Just curious as to what you guys would count as enough to get the ball rolling. I understand the desire to avoid millions of accusations flying around that you'd have to follow up on, but I also understand the point of view of "how would I prove someone else's age?"

ETA - I was typing this while you were replying above. Sorry I think you answered some of this.

Justin will have the answer this. I'm not currently and never have been on a USASF board or committee that would be involved in this.

 

[ASCheerMan]

ASCheerMan (or Andre ) what would it actually take to make an accusation about age to USASF? If I "knew" someone on another gym's senior team was 20 (like if I know their family or something. Assume for this scenario I've known them forever and I really do know for sure that they are 20 years old.) I certainly do not have their birth certificate. Why or how would I? So does that mean that there would be no way to file a complaint (or accusation or whatever you would call it)? Is the burden of proof on the accuser? Just curious as to what you guys would count as enough to get the ball rolling. I understand the desire to avoid millions of accusations flying around that you'd have to follow up on, but I also understand the point of view of "how would I prove someone else's age?"

ETA - I was typing this while you were replying above. Sorry I think you answered some of this.

For the record, I am uncertain as to whether or not it's the USASF that you are supposed to bring these claims to. They are certainly the appropriate party to receive the claim if it is Worlds eligbility that is being questioned. But, my only experience is in the claim coming to the Event Producer holding the event that the accused is attending.

First and foremost, I would always urge someone to step forward with the information prior to the potential infraction. I knock out 90% occurrences of cheating by calling the coach and saying "hey, just to let you know, there is a lot of talk that your Senior team has an age ineligible athlete on it. The talk may or may not be true and you may or may not know about it. But if it's legit and they compete with you next weekend, it'll get ugly." My hope isn't to catch anyone in the act, it's to keep it from occuring. As much as you may want to see someone get caught redhanded and disqualified, the public chatter circling 'cheaters in cheerleading' isn't good for any of us.

If you were to make a claim of illegal athletes being used on another team, I would ask you to submit some type of secondary proof that supports your claim. That could be a copy of a yearbook, a print screen of her driving record you found online, or more often than not it's a screenshot of their FB page that includes a Status Update posted by the accused that clearly incriminates herself (ex: "Today's my birthday, and I just became old enough serve liquor even though I can't buy it legally! Woo Hoo!).

Unfortunately, if you can produce NOTHING that supports your claim, its likely I won't move forward at all. Even if in YOUR case you are 100% confident they are guilty, having nothing usually means that the accuser doesn't know their facts well enough to warrant even making the accusation. And THAT is who usually makes the claim--not the coach or gym owner, but a once removed parent who heard a rumor in the parent viewing area at practice.

In summary, its not so much that the burden of proof is on the accuser. But there are too many rumors and false accusations out there to waste our time on cases not supported with ANYTHING.

**and I type all of this with the disclaimer that the USASF"s current Athlete Identification program will wipe out 98% of these issues.

 

[WorkToWin]

With all the fakes and impersonators out there, I wouldn't just believe a facebook screenshot... That would be too easy to fake also.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

ASCheerMan thank you!

Justin will have the answer this. I'm not currently and never have been on a USASF board or committee that would be involved in this.

Thanks! Wasn't sure.

 

[NJ Coach]

Unfortunately, if you can produce NOTHING that supports your claim, its likely I won't move forward at all. Even if in YOUR case you are 100% confident they are guilty, having nothing usually means that the accuser doesn't know their facts well enough to warrant even making the accusation. And THAT is who usually makes the claim--not the coach or gym owner, but a once removed parent who heard a rumor in the parent viewing area at practice.

In summary, its not so much that the burden of proof is on the accuser. But there are too many rumors and false accusations out there to waste our time on cases not supported with ANYTHING.

A team I coached was accused of using an overage athlete a few years ago. The proof...she looked too old to be on a junior team. It really pissed me off that my name was being dragged through the mud because my kid could pass for 18, but was 13. Thankfully, an EP gave me a heads up that there were phone calls going out to every competition we were attending. I made sure mom had a certified copy of her bc with her all season.

Bottom line, if you don't have proof, don't spread the rumor. You cannot tell age by the way a kid looks, what they post on social media, or what a rival spreads about them.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[REA Dad]

Below is a link with the rules and requirements for reporting various violations and infractions.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fusasf.net.ismmedia.com%2FISM2%2F%2FForms%2FUSASF_Disciplinary_Process.pdf&ei=u44-UIb1I6640AHi2oGYDg&usg=AFQjCNFNZRJS39ASVrxgsAtNjq0m39yAmA&sig2=vIm1Tn1mM9LrM2pDspFo9Q&cad=rja